A few days ago, Steve Roesler wrote a blog post entitled “Real Leaders Can Tell You about It.” The post was about his time at the World Business Forum 2009 where he saw a lot of big name speakers and one of his main points was “if a speaker had accomplished something by leading, I gave more credibility to what was said.”
I commented that experience is no guarantee of success, and stated that a lot of experienced leaders had run their organizations and our economy into the ground. Steve replied:
Of the many people in leadership roles, there are a handful of weasels who have done real harm, been allowed to do harm, and whose exploits are held up in the media as examples of “the evil of business”. After 30+ years of managing in a Fortune 50 company and consulting with many others, I have to say that the vast majority of leaders are conscientious, honest, and trying to do the right things day after day. As a result, they don’t make for good copy and don’t get any attention from business writers or major media.
His reply challenged me to think about my perspective. Is leadership at the top really as bad as I think it is?
I’ve been an employee since the day I turned 16, so over 32 years now. I’ve never been an executive; and although I have held some leadership positions, I have always worked in what I describe as “the bowels” of the organization. Even though I am now a professor and teach leadership and management, I am still an employee and still really on the front lines of my organization.
I have to honestly say that in my 32 years I have rarely been impressed by the senior leadership of any organization I have worked for. As I have written before here, here, and here, I have been impressed with some individual leaders, but they were folks I reported directly to so they too were closer to the front line than the executive suite. Is my poor opinion of senior leadership really just a matter of inaccurate perception on my part?
What’s your experience with leadership? How would you characterize the quality of leadership at the top of the organizations where you have worked?
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You ask a very important question. I don’t think it’s your perception – it is your reality. I can say the same exact thing.
I was recently talking with a client about leadership, motivation and aligning behavior in an organization. I mentioned that in order for the company to truly change its culture the leadership had to model the new culture. They were the key to any change. The client said – “they don’t believe they have to change. It’s not them – it’s the rest of us.”
Where we left the conversation was that as long as leaders think they are above the same behavioral norms as the rest of the organization you will have problems with leadership.
Example: Things like belt-tightening for the staff, but execs still getting bonuses and other exec perqs.
Where we ended on the conversation is that since there are few execs they become a scarce resource (perceptually) and start to believe they are outside the norm.
The start to believe they are different and special – and therefore don’t need to follow the same cultural norms as the rest of the organization. From car allowances for VPs who never go to client offices to special parking to executive office suites – everything speaks to them being “different” – therefore, they have a different set of rules.
As long as leaders think they are different there can be little leadership. IMHO.
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 6:36 am
Paul, welcome to my site! I love your blog, BTW. I really appreciate what you are saying here. A great example from my personal experience is my last place of employment, NDSU, the president was VERY popular with students, faculty, and the community. His popularity gave him great power in the state education system. Well yesterday I read that he resigned – another one of those deals where people had reason to question how he and his wife has used state funds e.g. $22K family trip to DC paid by foundation funds. Thanks, Paul! Bret
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And I’m sure the conversation at his house was…”what? We didn’t do anything wrong.”
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 6:44 am
well to his credit he resigned quickly. the fascinating thing I think is how willing the followers seem to be to discount the behavior and keep him on. One of the BIG reasons we have problems with leadership is because we also have serious problems with followership, IMHO. Thanks! Bret
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Is the problem with followship the fact that everyone really wants the leaders to be different – so that when they become leaders (many believe they will) they get the same treatment? In other words, they cannot be too vocal about the behavior because deep down hope that when they get to be leaders they get the same perqs and treatment?
I know that I’ve seen many people I thought were great leaders when leading was all they had, but became terrible leaders when they actually got to a position where they had the corner office, expense account, etc. It changed them.
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 6:57 am
I think that is part of it for sure. We also love the romance of leadership. We think we need a hero to credit when things are going well and to thrash when things go bad. The reality of performance, as you know, is much more complicated. So many followers never assume full responsibility for themselves, and we have plenty of leaders that help them by colluding and setting up dependent relationships. I’ve written a lot about that here. Thanks, Paul! Bret
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Bret, I agree with Steve. He and I are priveleged to work with some great leaders who don’t make the press. We couldn’t possibly do what we do without believing that there are good senior leaders out there.
They are in the trenches. They are striving and fighting to do the good work against extremely long odds. We often don’t see them.
Like us, they put their pants on one leg at a time. They make mistakes just as you and I do. Their ego’s get in the way, they run over people, they crash and burn, and pick themselves up again.
They are human. And they are the majority.
I’d like to hear more about the specific criteria you’ve used to make your statements about senior leadership!
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 7:05 am
Appreciate your thoughts, MJ! Is it possible you have a response bias at work? Since you are coaching, you will most likely come in contact with folks that see their need for development. And you are being paid by them to help them, which can’t help but influence your perception. I also come in contact with hundreds of students a year who just like me are in the bowels of some work organization. We talk about work and leadership. RARELY do I hear stories of real excellence. Had one of those conversations just yesterday with a stellar student but her work experience was shocking. I think there is a bubble around senior leaders and those that advise them that isolates them from the real experiences of employees and customers on the front lines. Thanks!!! Bret
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Mary Jo Asmus Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 7:16 am
Of course this is possible. But keep in mind that I also worked in “Corporate America” for 25 years, for some of the best (and worst) leaders imaginable. The good and great ones are there. They are everywhere.
If I had to define a bad senior leader, I’d say they were individuals who were intentionally evil. Most are not. They are good people who make bad mistakes. The question is whether they want to learn and change as a result of them.
I wonder if this might be a question of what we choose to focus on? Our society, and indeed, our organizations, do tend to be critical, and to focus on what (in our judgment) is wrong.
I have chosen to focus on what is right. Now, and when I worked in corporate. Its a survival tactic, in a way!
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 7:47 am
I do so very much appreciate what you are saying. And learning is very, very key to me. The fact is you MUST focus on failure and what is wrong in order to be able to improve and grow. So many senior leaders want to gloss over mistakes with positive rhetoric. Now that might not be “evil” but it is irresponsible. We can and should do much better. Thanks! Bret
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Bret, your metaphor of working in “the bowels” certainly sets up a perceptual frame. How about “the heart”? And what about being on the “front lines”? Is teaching really like war?
Which is simply to say that while it’s certain that your assessment is distorted by your own filters, that doesnt’ mean there aren’t terrible examples of power abuse whenever we look up. And the farther “up” we look, the easier it is to see how “they” aren’t walking the talk.
It’s true. They are deeply flawed. But, it’s very easy to ignore the ways that I don’t walk my own talk. Particularly, when parsing the motivations of others.
I admire a statement made by the head of an organization (Genpo Roshi of bigmind.org). He said, “Don’t ask if I abuse power. Ask how I abuse it.”
In other words, we all have shadow sides. And most (if not all) are screwed up when it comes to authority and power. Awareness is the healing agent. Beginning with self awareness. This is a foundation for taking action that will be (less) harmful.
Which brings me back to bowels. Repositories of waste and purifiers of the system. Noble work.
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Eric, I absolutely see the issue through my filters, as do all of us. That’s why I asked the question in my post about the validity of my perception. Power gives leaders the opportunity to abuse and the tools to silence and distance themselves from the dissent when they do.
This is why I teach. I have no desire to spend my life belly aching (another bowel metaphor) about the problems or throwing in the towel. I engage in the daily work of trying to play a small role in making things different. Thanks! Bret
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When I conduct The Leadership Challenge Workshops, I differentiate between self-appointed or by-default “capital L” leaders – similar to Mark Sanborn’s philosophies. The difference between Leaders and leaders is where they “wear” the “L” or “l” – is it all in their head, or all in their heart. At every level, “little l” leaders are the ones who make the difference by carrying leadership in their heart.
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 10:44 am
That is a great perspective, Angie! Too many leaders start their path without proper perspective. No surprise that when they get to the top they have no little l. Want to know how to tell if a leader has heart? Look on the very front lines of the organization. Whatever you see out there is a direct reflection of senior leadership. if people are thriving, you are seeing great leadership, but if people are dying on the vine, I don’t care how charismatic the head is or how lofty the rhetoric, the leadership is problematic. Thanks! Bret
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Perhaps you have the misfortune of only working for “corrupt institutions” Lessig- http://blip.tv/file/2711623
It’s kind of like the nature/nurture argument. Are the people in the system foul, or is the system itself bad? What is the organizational culture like in these places where the leadership seems awful?
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Aaron that video is fascinating!! Thanks for pointing me to it. Bret
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Great post, Bret, building on Steve’s. There are also lots of great comments, so let me add something that’s been hinted at but not explicit that I think is importat.
Over the last twenty years or so, we’ve raised “leadership” and “leaders” to an exalted status. That’s resulted in people craving the title and it’s resulted in more of those at the top of chart thinking that they are superior human beings. Simply put, if you’re a CEO it was harder to be humble in 2005 than it was in 1985.
That said, I agree with Steve. Most of the leaders at any level do good and honest work, day after day, often under outrageous pressure and often without adequate resources. That doesn’t make the headlines.
The executives and CEOs that help produce those results don’t’ make the cover of business week. They certainly aren’t seen on TV doing a perp walk. Here’s one example.
Norman Asbjornson has been CEO of AAON, based in Tulsa, since the company came into being in 1988. The company completes in industrial air conditioning against the likes of Carrier and Trane. It’s been consistently profitable. It’s debt-free, with a strong balance sheet. And it’s been named “one of the best stocks to retire on.” Magnificent achievement by any standard, but I’m will to bet that hardly anyone knows who Asbjornson is.
The fact is that solid, steady, long-term performance simply doesn’t make news. Because it doesn’t, it seems like the big, bad, bullying and awful are the rule. But I don’t think they are.
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
I was hoping to hear your perspective, Wally, so I appreciate your thoughts. Certainly concur that the type of results you discuss with Norman A as an example are imperative. But what about other results? when I judge leadership I don’t just consider balance sheets, but what is happening with the front line employees and customers of the business. Back to the metaphor of judging a tree by the quality of its fruit. People should be thriving, customers should be delighted. I’ve worked in organizations that had very charismatic leaders and the organizations were experiencing financial growth, so the public perception was of leadership excellence. But in the bowels of the organization, it was the same old shit. Packaged differently for sure but for the folks that had to wade through it everyday, it was unmistakenly shit. Because I am one, my heart and my bias has always been with the average Sally and Joe employee.
Thanks Wally!!!! Bret
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Wally Bock Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Where I was agreeing with Steve is that there are a lot of good and effective managers out there, but that quiet, effective work rarely gets the publicity that a juicy crime or obscene pay package can generate.
Seems to me that if top management is doing things right they consider a variety of stakeholders, including stockholders, customers and employees and they consider both results and values/methods. It’s not an easy challenge, but there’s no reason it should be.
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Concur, Wally. I know we share a passion for excellence in leadership. The stakes are high for our children and grandchildren. They need people like you that raise the bar and join the effort to help. Thanks!! Bret
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Bret, what a great post and conversation! My own filters of experience come down on the side of encountering a slight majority of truly good senior leaders over 22 years in 4 different global firms.
The “weasels” that Steve describe are out there and while there are way too many of them (hey, they give us something to write and speak about!), in my own experience, they are a subset of the overall group. In particular, I’ve had the good fortune to work in a few organizations where the senior leadership truly understood their role in building great businesses by engaging great people, not by stepping on them.
During the past few years, I’ve spent most of my time with early career leaders, and the passion runs high in this group to learn to lead effectively. They rankle at some of the lousy leaders that they’ve been exposed to in their early careers and in my perception, have strong convictions about doing things the right way when it is their turn.
I’ll look at it as the glass is half full. One side note, reading through the comments and adding my own 2 cents here has helped me dredge up some outstanding memories of senior leaders that I learned a great deal from in my past. Thanks for the blogging inspiration!
Keep up the outstanding blogging work, Bret!
-Art
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Bret L. Simmons Reply:
October 16th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Glad to hear your thougts on this, Art. Very encouraging that early career leaders are passionate about leadership and excellence. That is a very good sign that the next generation of leaders will pass the torch up the mountain. Thanks! Bret
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