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	<title>Comments on: Goal Setting: An Example of why it is Not Easy to Practice Evidence-Based Management</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/</link>
	<description>Leadership, followership, and purpose at work</description>
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		<title>By: LeaderLab &#187; The Practical Insignificance Of Exceptional Management Research</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-12461</link>
		<dc:creator>LeaderLab &#187; The Practical Insignificance Of Exceptional Management Research</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 22:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-12461</guid>
		<description>[...] Goal Setting: An Example Of Why It’s Not Easy To Practice Evidence-Based Management Related PostsNovember 29, 2010 -- Leading Teams Of Individuals (1)November 15, 2010 -- The Search For Top Executives (2)September 5, 2010 -- Is A Narcissistic CEO Good For Your Organization? (0)August 29, 2010 -- Five Evidence-Based Outcomes Of Both The Bright-Side And The Dark-Side Of A Leader’s Personality (8)August 22, 2010 -- Seven Things to Expect From Your Narcissistic Employee (47) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Goal Setting: An Example Of Why It’s Not Easy To Practice Evidence-Based Management Related PostsNovember 29, 2010 &#8212; Leading Teams Of Individuals (1)November 15, 2010 &#8212; The Search For Top Executives (2)September 5, 2010 &#8212; Is A Narcissistic CEO Good For Your Organization? (0)August 29, 2010 &#8212; Five Evidence-Based Outcomes Of Both The Bright-Side And The Dark-Side Of A Leader’s Personality (8)August 22, 2010 &#8212; Seven Things to Expect From Your Narcissistic Employee (47) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bret L. Simmons</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret L. Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-1641</guid>
		<description>Welcome, Richard!  I really appreciate your expert thoughts on this topic.  I am a huge fan of continuous improvement so your books look very interesting.  If anyone reads this comment, I would encourage you to Google Richard or go to Amazon.com and look for his books.  

&quot;Hope plucked out of the air&quot; I concur. Too many goals are arbitrary and reflect a total lack of knowledge of what the current system is actually capable of producing.  It was either Deming or Joiner that said most managers are numerically illiterate and that is certainly reflected in the way they approach goal setting.

Thanks, Richard!  Bret</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome, Richard!  I really appreciate your expert thoughts on this topic.  I am a huge fan of continuous improvement so your books look very interesting.  If anyone reads this comment, I would encourage you to Google Richard or go to Amazon.com and look for his books.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Hope plucked out of the air&#8221; I concur. Too many goals are arbitrary and reflect a total lack of knowledge of what the current system is actually capable of producing.  It was either Deming or Joiner that said most managers are numerically illiterate and that is certainly reflected in the way they approach goal setting.</p>
<p>Thanks, Richard!  Bret</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Schonberger</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-1621</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Schonberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-1621</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been in and around industry/business long enough to have this impression: 25, 30, 40 years ago managers and executives did not often set numeric goals; over time it became obligatory--measures of achievement naked unaccompanied by a goal, thereby to show gap and degree of gap closure.

I can&#039;t (yet) prove this, but have been building a research file and plotting ways to get at then vs. now practices in management-by-goals. A Google search, part of the research, is how I found your blog on the subject.

Actually, just before your blog came up, I had Googled &quot;dubious management goals&quot; and was quite surprised that first up was a reference to a section from my own 2007 book. It&#039;s some pages that raise all sorts of issues about performance metrics, management-by-the-numbers, and so on.

I see management goals (except necessary ones, such as the need to cut cash outlays, or the firm goes under) as hopes plucked out of the air. They are like New Years&#039; resolutions. Actually, those are always personal, and personal goals--maybe even small team goals--are okay. For some of us they motivate us--as constant reminders (e.g., to lay off the calories, or not be late to work). For many others, they fall flat, as they would without the goal, but no harm done.

A management goal is far different. It boils down hugely complex, interacting sets of variables to a single numeric. Achieving the number does what? Much better than that numeric goal is measuring progress by a trend line, the important characteristics of which are steepness, length (months, years), and evenness.

A few months ago I ran across some of the goals debate that has appeared in academic journals (I was a prof for years, but with more years doing applied research as an independent). I&#039;ve corresponded with one of the lead authors, who had not made the connection between management goals and the performance measures--&quot;metrics&quot;--that are, in business, the main reason for the goals.

How can there be a goal that does not get tied to a performance number? How can the subject of management goals and numerics not be cause for a subtraction that reveals a performance gap? (Showing gaps is, parenthetically, the primary way that management consultants try to get contracts.) I find plenty of fault for the whole works. But most managers, irrationally, would be lost without their goals and metrics--and gap analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been in and around industry/business long enough to have this impression: 25, 30, 40 years ago managers and executives did not often set numeric goals; over time it became obligatory&#8211;measures of achievement naked unaccompanied by a goal, thereby to show gap and degree of gap closure.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t (yet) prove this, but have been building a research file and plotting ways to get at then vs. now practices in management-by-goals. A Google search, part of the research, is how I found your blog on the subject.</p>
<p>Actually, just before your blog came up, I had Googled &#8220;dubious management goals&#8221; and was quite surprised that first up was a reference to a section from my own 2007 book. It&#8217;s some pages that raise all sorts of issues about performance metrics, management-by-the-numbers, and so on.</p>
<p>I see management goals (except necessary ones, such as the need to cut cash outlays, or the firm goes under) as hopes plucked out of the air. They are like New Years&#8217; resolutions. Actually, those are always personal, and personal goals&#8211;maybe even small team goals&#8211;are okay. For some of us they motivate us&#8211;as constant reminders (e.g., to lay off the calories, or not be late to work). For many others, they fall flat, as they would without the goal, but no harm done.</p>
<p>A management goal is far different. It boils down hugely complex, interacting sets of variables to a single numeric. Achieving the number does what? Much better than that numeric goal is measuring progress by a trend line, the important characteristics of which are steepness, length (months, years), and evenness.</p>
<p>A few months ago I ran across some of the goals debate that has appeared in academic journals (I was a prof for years, but with more years doing applied research as an independent). I&#8217;ve corresponded with one of the lead authors, who had not made the connection between management goals and the performance measures&#8211;&#8221;metrics&#8221;&#8211;that are, in business, the main reason for the goals.</p>
<p>How can there be a goal that does not get tied to a performance number? How can the subject of management goals and numerics not be cause for a subtraction that reveals a performance gap? (Showing gaps is, parenthetically, the primary way that management consultants try to get contracts.) I find plenty of fault for the whole works. But most managers, irrationally, would be lost without their goals and metrics&#8211;and gap analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Goal Setting: A Few Anecdotal Observations. &#171; Bret L. Simmons</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-301</link>
		<dc:creator>Goal Setting: A Few Anecdotal Observations. &#171; Bret L. Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-301</guid>
		<description>[...] .editComment, .editableComment, .textComment{ display: inline; } .comment-childs{ border: 1px solid #999; margin: 5px 2px 2px 4px; padding: 4px 2px 2px 4px; background-color: white; } .chalt{ background-color: #E2E2E2; } #newcomment{ border:1px dashed #777;width:90%; } #newcommentsubmit{ color:red; } .adminreplycomment{ border:1px dashed #777; width:99%; margin:4px; padding:4px; } .mvccls{ color: #999; }   &#171; Goal Setting: An Example of why it is Not Easy to Practice Evidence-Based Management [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] .editComment, .editableComment, .textComment{ display: inline; } .comment-childs{ border: 1px solid #999; margin: 5px 2px 2px 4px; padding: 4px 2px 2px 4px; background-color: white; } .chalt{ background-color: #E2E2E2; } #newcomment{ border:1px dashed #777;width:90%; } #newcommentsubmit{ color:red; } .adminreplycomment{ border:1px dashed #777; width:99%; margin:4px; padding:4px; } .mvccls{ color: #999; }   &laquo; Goal Setting: An Example of why it is Not Easy to Practice Evidence-Based Management [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bret L. Simmons</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-300</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret L. Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-300</guid>
		<description>Michael:  You nailed a few of my big concerns about how goal setting is often administered - poorly. Goals handed down and not negotiated, grave consequences, tension - excellent points.  Thanks for sharing!  Bret</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael:  You nailed a few of my big concerns about how goal setting is often administered &#8211; poorly. Goals handed down and not negotiated, grave consequences, tension &#8211; excellent points.  Thanks for sharing!  Bret</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Ling</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Ling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-299</guid>
		<description>Brett

Goal setting was a Big thing in the software firm I worked. There is the annual senior management forum where goals, targets and objectives are handed down from one layer to the next, top to bottom.  In addition there are quarterly reviews where adjustments and corrections are made to goals and objectives.

It is hysterical and creates tension around the organization.. grave consequences will result if one can&#039;t meet one&#039;s goals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett</p>
<p>Goal setting was a Big thing in the software firm I worked. There is the annual senior management forum where goals, targets and objectives are handed down from one layer to the next, top to bottom.  In addition there are quarterly reviews where adjustments and corrections are made to goals and objectives.</p>
<p>It is hysterical and creates tension around the organization.. grave consequences will result if one can&#8217;t meet one&#8217;s goals.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret L. Simmons</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-298</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret L. Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-298</guid>
		<description>Fred, I totally concur.  In the social sciences there are few if any closed debates.  When I post my few observations about goal setting, I hope you will return and share some of yours.  Thanks!!  Bret</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred, I totally concur.  In the social sciences there are few if any closed debates.  When I post my few observations about goal setting, I hope you will return and share some of yours.  Thanks!!  Bret</p>
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		<title>By: Fred H Schlegel</title>
		<link>http://www.bretlsimmons.com/2009-08/goal-setting-an-example-of-why-it-is-not-easy-to-practice-evidence-based-management/comment-page-1/#comment-296</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred H Schlegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 03:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bretlsimmons.com/?p=638#comment-296</guid>
		<description>Having been the recipient of goal based management in a variety of forms I look forward to your anecdotes. Given the speed at which human behavior is changing, I find any scholars in the more social of sciences claiming issues are resolved and closed to debate to be on shaky ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been the recipient of goal based management in a variety of forms I look forward to your anecdotes. Given the speed at which human behavior is changing, I find any scholars in the more social of sciences claiming issues are resolved and closed to debate to be on shaky ground.</p>
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